ImpDev Meetups/2011-06-16

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ImpDev Meetup for June 16, 2011.

  • initial idea that lead to the existence of the TPV mailing list (See [02:44 PM])
  • This summary is still incomplete. Please edit this page to expand it.

Agenda Items

  • how's the stand of beta1? (Armin)
  • Kokua upstream merging - plans, ideas, wishes? (Armin)
  • helping other viewers with OpenSim support - what can we do? (Armin)


  • #963 - Documentation: Spell Checking
  • #964 - Documentation: AutoCorrect
  • #965 - Documentation: Translation
  • #966 - Documentation: Chatbar Commands


[01:09 PM] McCabe Maxsted: okay, let's get goin'? I have to leave right at 2
[01:09 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Mkay, let's start then
[01:09 PM] Jacek Antonelli: First topic: Status of Imp 1.4 beta 1.
[01:10 PM] Jacek Antonelli: The release notes are coming along, but not done yet. Getting closer.
[01:10 PM] Stryker Jenkins: do we need to wait for the full release notes to be compleet?
[01:11 PM] Stryker Jenkins: I am worried about the ogg fix
[01:12 PM] Richardus Raymaker: cabt wait to try the beta
[01:12 PM] Richardus Raymaker: its downloadable somewhere ?
[01:13 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Stryker: That's a fair point.
[01:13 PM] Armin WeatherHax: I'd also opt for a release note preview - or have it in epsodes ;)
[01:13 PM] McCabe Maxsted: I have a windows copy of a test version if anyone wants it
[01:13 PM] Armin WeatherHax: episodes*
[01:13 PM] Richardus Raymaker: need linux 64bit
[01:14 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: Then we'd never have Imprudence 1.4 Episode 3 and go straight to Imprudence 3 instead.
[01:14 PM] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[01:14 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: (Kokua+1?)
[01:15 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: But anyway, how close to finishing is "closer"?
[01:15 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: Rel 1.4 beta 1 I mean.
[01:15 PM] Stryker Jenkins: How much longer do you hope / expect your working on the release notes Jacek?
[01:15 PM] Thoria Millgrove: Impru 1.4 Episode 2, attack of the clones?
[01:16 PM] McCabe Maxsted has finished all the stuff on my plate for b1 except for sorting out voavatar. Was hoping thickbrick would be here today to ask him about some commits, but I guess I'll use the mailing list instead
[01:16 PM] Armin WeatherHax: the thing is it isn't the final release - and we want to have something to write then too ...
[01:16 PM] Jacek Antonelli: I think I have all the list items that will be in the release notes, categorized and sorted. Pretty much all that's left is rewriting it in proper english (instead of commit-message-ese) and adding missing information where needed.
[01:17 PM] Jacek Antonelli: If I posted the current notes on the wiki, would anyone volunteer to help rewrite some of the items?
[01:17 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: Not me, I'm going to Anthrocon this year... but it's a good idea!
[01:18 PM] Stryker Jenkins: Say if the release notes are 1 or 2 weeks away, you could say that when releasing the software in a couple of days
[01:18 PM] Stryker Jenkins: if it takes longer for the release notes the software release should wait a bit longer
[01:18 PM] Stryker Jenkins: but not to much
[01:18 PM] Jacek Antonelli: There are also some documentation wiki pages that should be written soon, for spell checking, autocorrect, translation, and chatbar commands. I've posted issues on the tracker:
[01:18 PM] McCabe Maxsted will be moving furniture for the next couple of days, but I'll be around to answer questions, prolly
[01:19 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Issues 963 through 966
[01:19 PM] Stryker Jenkins: I said on the issue traker I will look into the spell checking stuff
[01:19 PM] McCabe Maxsted has a few less-than-informative commit messages in there.. *guilty face*
[01:19 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: Hopefully there won't be any edit wars though. But if all is left is rewording the changes and not any editing (sorting out which change goes in the notes and which one don't) it should be all right.
[01:19 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Those don't *need* to be finished for the release, but it would be nice to have them soon
[01:19 PM] Stryker Jenkins: but I noticed that there are bugs in the spell checking
[01:19 PM] McCabe Maxsted: the auto-correct feature?
[01:20 PM] Stryker Jenkins: yeah...
[01:20 PM] Stryker Jenkins: looking for emerald notice.xml
[01:20 PM] Stryker Jenkins: and in loading new dictionaries
[01:20 PM] Stryker Jenkins: regrads the emerald wiki is offline
[01:21 PM] McCabe Maxsted: if they're not filed, file 'em; I can take a look for b2
[01:21 PM] Jacek Antonelli: That's another benefit of doing the release notes... I've found several bugs while researching changes we've made
[01:21 PM] Stryker Jenkins: not sure if that should be a priority
[01:22 PM] McCabe Maxsted: well, I konw I'll totally forget about it, otherwise, hehe
[01:22 PM] Stryker Jenkins: well it are bugs or maybe I am to stupid and don't understand / know how to figure out the system
[01:22 PM] Stryker Jenkins: anyway Jacek... I am on the wiki pages...
[01:23 PM] Stryker Jenkins: for as far as I know how
[01:23 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Thanks Stryker, I appreciate it. :) But, I think we will need more than just one person working on these
[01:23 PM] Stryker Jenkins: I would not hold back on the release because the support pages are not there yet
[01:24 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, agreed about that
[01:24 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: Is there anything else required, other than the release notes, that are required to ship 1.4?
[01:24 PM] Stryker Jenkins: perhaps TVP directory with LL?
[01:25 PM] Stryker Jenkins: or don't you have to update that with them for a new release?
[01:25 PM] Jacek Antonelli: To ship the beta, only the release notes are holding it up.
[01:25 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: Okay.
[01:25 PM] Jacek Antonelli: We/I need to update our TPVD listing sometime anyway, but not strictly necessary for this release
[01:26 PM] McCabe Maxsted: there's a list of stuff for b2 before 1.4 goes gold, but that's for another time...
[01:26 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah
[01:27 PM] Stryker Jenkins: I guess the advice is ... don't wait to long with a beta 1 release and doing the notes afterward isn't all that bad
[01:27 PM] McCabe Maxsted: wb armin :)
[01:28 PM] McCabe Maxsted: I already feel bad enough for people who're going to use this release on SL..
[01:29 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, I know a lot of people are eager to have the download. And maybe I'm being a bit too rigid about this. But, I want to do the release properly.
[01:29 PM] Armin WeatherHax: ty :)
[01:29 PM] Richardus Raymaker: why its bad for sl ?
[01:29 PM] McCabe Maxsted: 1.4 isn't going to have the multiattach/multilayer patch
[01:30 PM] Stryker Jenkins: right... but still I am a bit worried about the .ogg stuff
[01:30 PM] McCabe Maxsted: or the rlva update
[01:30 PM] Stryker Jenkins: @McCabe
[01:30 PM] Richardus Raymaker: ohh. then i dont mis anything
[01:30 PM] Stryker Jenkins: you can just tell them when it will have that
[01:30 PM] McCabe Maxsted: the crash exploit was fixed, wasn't it?
[01:30 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, I'm sure quite a few people will be disappointed about that missing stuff
[01:31 PM] Richardus Raymaker: stryker. i wish i could test the ogg if someone have linux 64bit for me and you say what...
[01:31 PM] Jacek Antonelli: The exploit was fixed in 1.3.2, but people still using 1.4 Experimental are still vulnerable
[01:32 PM] Richardus Raymaker: hmm. but 1.3.2 dont have derender so you need 1.4 in sl
[01:33 PM] Stryker Jenkins: that brings me to the point... I suggest you say in the release on the blog that people SHOULD install the Beta 1 if they are using the Experimental for this vulnerability reason
[01:33 PM] Nicky Perian: are replacement oggvorbis dll's needed or not?
[01:34 PM] Jacek Antonelli: McCabe's the one to answer that, Nicky
[01:36 PM] Jacek Antonelli: In the past, he told me that they probably weren't necessary, because the DLLs we are using now are probably recent enough not to have the exploit
[01:37 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Anyway...
[01:37 PM] McCabe Maxsted: there're two different sets, one for gstreamer, one not; the issue was with the other one IIRC and that's been fixed in 1.3.2; you'll need to use that or the beta
[01:39 PM] McCabe Maxsted: is there anything else on the agenda? Because if not I have something
[01:39 PM] Stryker Jenkins: looks like: Kokua upstream merging - plans, ideas, wishes?
helping other viewers with OpenSim support - what can we do?
[01:40 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Ok, anyway. To recap: we need people to help write the wiki documentation, and if anyone wants to help rewrite items on the release notes, let me know.
[01:40 PM] Jacek Antonelli: That pretty much covers beta 1.
[01:40 PM] Jacek Antonelli: So we'll move on to: Kokua upstream merging - plans, ideas, wishes?
[01:40 PM] Armin WeatherHax: since i added both 1 min before the meeting started feel free to .insert(topic)
[01:41 PM] Jacek Antonelli: McCabe, since you have to leave at 2, what's your topic?
[01:42 PM] McCabe Maxsted: an audit of the grid list. We removed aurora grid, and meta7 is on there even though it's gone. We should make sure the grids we have are still current (and could be a good time to update the list with grids who've requested addition)
[01:42 PM] Penny Rayne: Aurora was removed? What happened?
[01:43 PM] Jacek Antonelli: I did a bit of an informal audit yesterday. I found WorldSimTerra seems to be dead or dying, considering their main site is broken and the domain name for their LoginURI has been bought up by someone else.
[01:43 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Aurora Grid was just a testing/development grid, it probably shouldn't have been added to the list in the first place
[01:43 PM] Revolution Smythe: Penny: it was a test grid
[01:43 PM] Revolution Smythe: correct
[01:44 PM] Penny Rayne: kk
[01:44 PM] Richardus Raymaker: meta7 can be removed for sure..
[01:44 PM] McCabe Maxsted asked on IRC if it should be added, heh
[01:44 PM] Revolution Smythe: that was so that Astra and Imprudence would have the same grid list heh
[01:44 PM] Revolution Smythe: since k\o\w had added it to Astra's
[01:45 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, I've removed Aurora, Meta7, and WorldSimTerra from the list
[01:45 PM] Jacek Antonelli: (Haven't pushed the latter yet, though)
[01:45 PM] Jacek Antonelli: I didn't see any other grids that are obviously dead
[01:46 PM] Revolution Smythe: legendCityOnline is
[01:46 PM] Armin WeatherHax: sidetopic are we adding protocolhandlers for 3rdrock:// osgrid:// (etc .) too after we have inworldz://
[01:46 PM] Stryker Jenkins: is there a formal audit time / cycle for the grid list? say ever other quarter or something like that?
[01:47 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: No grid has adopted hop? Aww.
[01:47 PM] Jacek Antonelli: LCO has been removed from the default list, but it will still persist (as will the others) in everyone's grid list until they remove it themselves
[01:47 PM] Boroondas Gupte: hmm ... seperate protocol for each grid? doesn't sound like the right way to go
[01:47 PM] Revolution Smythe: ahh
[01:47 PM] Penny Rayne: That sounds like a very bad idea. VW access is all meant to be using the same protocol. Sounds like vanity naming.
[01:48 PM] Revolution Smythe: Boroondas: +1
[01:48 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: It might have some uses like having different preferred viewer for each grid.
[01:48 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Agreed, Bor. I merged in McCabe's commit for IW protocol because he already did the work, but I'm hesitant.
[01:48 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: But I don't like it, it's taking up perfectly good names.
[01:48 PM] McCabe Maxsted can't find the list, but there've been several grids who've requested we add them
[01:49 PM] Armin WeatherHax: well, i think its right to have <viewer>://
[01:49 PM] McCabe Maxsted: armin: yeah, we should if they ever create unique viewers that use their own slurls
[01:49 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: That's even worse!
[01:49 PM] Richardus Raymaker: best if the grid can send that with the grid config then
[01:49 PM] Penny Rayne: Well if it uses a different protocol, it's fine, that's what schemes are for. But if it's not, then it's bad bad bad.
[01:49 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: Then grids have to write a version of their website for each viewer.
[01:50 PM] Boroondas Gupte: also, shoudn't identifiers for protocols not standardized by ISO/IETF/whatever start with "x-" or something? (I don't quite remember)
[01:50 PM] Thoria Millgrove: I despise websites that force me to use a preferred browser, and grids that force me to use a specific viewer don't make me happy, either
[01:50 PM] Penny Rayne: Agreed, Thoria
[01:50 PM] Jacek Antonelli: I think that's just MIME types, Bor
[01:50 PM] McCabe Maxsted: indeed. Imp users should expect to be able to click on any slurl they get chatted to
[01:51 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Protocol identifiers seem to be a bit of a free-for-all, every app and its uncle have concocted their own. steam://, chrome://, etc.
[01:51 PM] Penny Rayne: I think it should be stomped on, before this bad seed germinates. Even get rid of inworldz://
[01:52 PM] McCabe Maxsted: the inworldz:// links only work when clicked in the viewer
[01:52 PM] McCabe Maxsted: not supporting them would be bad for our users on inworldz
[01:52 PM] Richardus Raymaker: thoria, i go with you. dont want to use a crappy viewer. then i would avoid that grid
[01:53 PM] Stryker Jenkins: sounds like a cleaver guy needs to come up with a generic:// name
[01:53 PM] Revolution Smythe: and supporting them would be bad in the future for all other users as there will be links for every single grid
[01:53 PM] Revolution Smythe: Armin already did with his hop:// protocol (which is cool)
[01:53 PM] Richardus Raymaker: but iof you do inworldz. you need to do someday 50 grids
[01:54 PM] McCabe Maxsted shrugs. We need to be practical. If a grid decides it wants its own slurl format that viewers understand, we should support that
[01:54 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yeah though hop:// is in kokua, and a bunch more processing than whatever in impru
[01:54 PM] McCabe Maxsted: or we can say let's not support os grids :P
[01:54 PM] Penny Rayne: Rich: and one day 50 million. It's a bad direction
[01:54 PM] Richardus Raymaker: can you not make it that way its easy to configure or send from the grid server.
[01:54 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: Should we tell people that it's a bad idea though?
[01:54 PM] Boroondas Gupte: yeah
[01:54 PM] McCabe Maxsted: I'd rather tell everyone to just support hop
[01:55 PM] Richardus Raymaker: mcabe+
[01:55 PM] Revolution Smythe: McCabe: yeah... rather than having a protocol per grid
[01:55 PM] Richardus Raymaker: agree rev, its nor workable to do all grids.
[01:55 PM] McCabe Maxsted shrugs. Still not our choice, though, if someone wants to ignore our advice
[01:55 PM] Thoria Millgrove: a popup every time inworldz:// is clicked to say tell the grid operators to use hop:// instead? :-P
[01:56 PM] Penny Rayne: Haha
[01:56 PM] Jacek Antonelli: I think we all agree that hop (or whatever we call it) is the best plan for the future.
[01:56 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: That might be a bit overkill don't you think?
[01:56 PM] Penny Rayne: Kakurady: Overkill is when you electrocute the operator for clicking it :P
[01:57 PM] Jacek Antonelli: I'd like to poll everyone here about what to do about inworldz://, though.
[01:57 PM] Armin WeatherHax: I'd say for viewer1 generation secondlife:// does what anyone expects - from that no need to change it there - in viewer2 generation at least in LLs viewer it behaves differently - thats a good reason to say ok lets have something that works as *we* want it
[01:57 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: Perhaps the frst time and every time thereafter a inworldz: is used when launched from outside the viewer (i.e. not from inworld chat or webbrowser)
[01:57 PM] McCabe Maxsted: removing support will hurt our user exerpience
[01:57 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: *embedded webbrowser
[01:57 PM] Jacek Antonelli: If you're in favor of keeping inworldz:// support, say "Keep". If you're in favor of removing it, say "Remove". Otherwise, say "Abstain"
[01:57 PM] McCabe Maxsted: as I said, it only works with links clicked in the viewer. It won't work with links sent outside it
[01:58 PM] Nicky Perian: abstain
[01:58 PM] McCabe Maxsted: so when people share their slurls, they should expect other users to be able to click on 'em
[01:58 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: Keep.
[01:58 PM] Stryker Jenkins: abstain (to little knowladge)
[01:58 PM] Thoria Millgrove: abstain
[01:58 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Anyone else?
[01:58 PM] Revolution Smythe: Remove
[01:58 PM] Armin WeatherHax has to look up thethird word
[01:58 PM] Penny Rayne: I don't like sitting on the fence, and it's hard to find reason to support a bad think. So, remove.
[01:58 PM] Jacek Antonelli: It means you don't vote for either one
[01:58 PM] Stryker Jenkins: *Not to vote either way
[01:59 PM] McCabe Maxsted shakes his head. You guys do realize that IW has huge support for us and that there are many many users of imp on IW? And right now, they're sending each other two slurls because they don't know if someone is using imp or IW? It's a pain for people there and it's a small price for us to act like the metaverse client we want to be
[01:59 PM] Armin WeatherHax: ok, got it: abstain - though no to more <grid>://
[01:59 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: Can the inworldz:// urls be fully replaced with a more global equivalent, with no loss of functionality?
[02:00 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: I suppose if we end up removing this someone should write a blog post saying why we are against it.
[02:00 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Currently, there is no widespread global alternative. But hopefully we can change that for the future
[02:00 PM] Revolution Smythe: if it stays in 1.x: Keep, if it goes to 2.x: Remove
[02:00 PM] Revolution Smythe: yeah
[02:00 PM] McCabe Maxsted: bah, I gotta go
[02:00 PM] Penny Rayne: McCabe: Yes, IW does. But that can justify doing something bad, which just lands you in trouble as more grids demand personalized schemes?
[02:00 PM] McCabe Maxsted waves. Take care all
[02:00 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Take care, McCabe
[02:00 PM] Revolution Smythe: see you McCabe
[02:00 PM] Penny Rayne: Cya McCabe
[02:00 PM] Thoria Millgrove: bye McCabe
[02:00 PM] McCabe Maxsted: (and it's not a personalized scheme; it's already been implemented and used by teh grid)
[02:01 PM] Armin WeatherHax: tc McCabe
[02:01 PM] Richardus Raymaker: bye mccabe
[02:01 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: Practically it might be difficult to be against something already in use, without an equally practical alternative in hand.
[02:01 PM] Thoria Millgrove: already implemented and used, but definitely personalised; we would not want to use inworldz:// in 3RG
[02:02 PM] Thoria Millgrove: but I really cannot vote on this, as I'm obviously biased
[02:02 PM] Richardus Raymaker: maby keep it for now, but work (with inwolrdz?) for a betetr solution
[02:02 PM] Penny Rayne: That didn't make sense, McCabe. Sure it's implemented already, but it's certainly customized.
[02:02 PM] Thoria Millgrove: and not an impru developer
[02:02 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, my fear is really that <othergrid> then comes and says you have inwoldz in why not us?
[02:02 PM] Stryker Jenkins: Sounds like the viewer devs should go and talk to the grid managers about this issue first
[02:02 PM] Penny Rayne: I'm just an observer.
[02:02 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, these are valid points
[02:03 PM] Richardus Raymaker: armin+ yes, thats whick way it go
[02:03 PM] Richardus Raymaker: unless you can make it customizeable in the grid config
[02:04 PM] Jacek Antonelli: On the one hand, we don't want to encourage more grids to come up with more schemes. On the other hand, inworldz:// is already in fairly widespread use, so including it would be good for our users on IW.
[02:04 PM] Thoria Millgrove: well, speaking as a grid operator with two grids (3RG and Curiousity), I would prefer hop
[02:04 PM] Thoria Millgrove: I'd rather not have both 3rg and cg
[02:05 PM] Boroondas Gupte: What ever we do, short-term we can't 'win'. Long-term is our only hope, but it'll take a lot of communication to make that better.
[02:05 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: This must be what it feels like for Googlers to decide between H.264 and WebM.
[02:05 PM] Penny Rayne: Heh
[02:05 PM] Stryker Jenkins: it takes time and effort to confince others your plans are "better"... So unless your able to put in that time the other grids will look at the IW example and make up their own
[02:05 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: There's some value in encouraging grid owners to keep the larger hypergrid ecosystem in mind.
[02:05 PM] Penny Rayne: It's a mess whatever way you look at it. There's no win at all, it's lose-lose.
[02:05 PM] Thoria Millgrove: yes
[02:06 PM] Armin WeatherHax: ok, then lets have a debug setting in impru where people can put their fav scheme:// in - however we'll start the area of 1000000 schemes with that
[02:06 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: Unless we can get some other viewer devs to oppose inwordz://
[02:06 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: That would be cool but that would also mean building scheme registration code into the viewer and not just the installer.
[02:07 PM] Boroondas Gupte: :-\
[02:07 PM] Richardus Raymaker: extra line under grid manager -> grid info urls ?
[02:08 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Let me propose a solution: we include inworldz:// in Imprudence, but not Kokua, and we make clear that we will start to phase out the use of grid-specific URL schemes once hop:// becomes mature?
[02:08 PM] Nicky Perian: need to go take care
[02:08 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: I need to go too.
[02:08 PM] Boroondas Gupte: sounds good, Jacek
[02:08 PM] Richardus Raymaker: bye nicky
[02:08 PM] Penny Rayne: That sounds like a diplomatic way forward Jacek, aye
[02:08 PM] Boroondas Gupte: tc, those leaving
[02:08 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Take care Nicky and Kakurady
[02:08 PM] Kakurady Drakenar: sThanks.
[02:08 PM] Richardus Raymaker: sound good jacek
[02:08 PM] Penny Rayne: Cyu Nicky, Kaku
[02:08 PM] Richardus Raymaker: byekaku
[02:09 PM] Thoria Millgrove: bye Kaku
[02:09 PM] Stryker Jenkins: Jacek +1
[02:09 PM] Thoria Millgrove: bye Nicky
[02:09 PM] Thoria Millgrove: +1 Jacek, but expect push back
[02:09 PM] Jacek Antonelli: That brings up another question. Do we also phase out secondlife:// URLs, to be consistent?
[02:09 PM] Penny Rayne: Indeed
[02:09 PM] Richardus Raymaker: hehe
[02:09 PM] Armin WeatherHax: sounds ok, still - limit it to that one
[02:09 PM] Boroondas Gupte: heh ... to be consistent we would have
[02:10 PM] Stryker Jenkins: me thinks
[02:10 PM] Richardus Raymaker: btw how many use it in sl, imprudence. i see to much red there
[02:10 PM] Armin WeatherHax: I don't think thats possible ... but yeah it would be the best
[02:10 PM] Penny Rayne: Very little use of secondlife:// in SL, Rich
[02:11 PM] Thoria Millgrove: I use Impru almost exclusively in SL
[02:11 PM] Thoria Millgrove: as well as 3RG, obviously
[02:11 PM] Stryker Jenkins: can we use hop:// to hop from SecondLife to InWorlds to 3rdRock and back? yeah than go for 1... if not then.... bugger
[02:11 PM] Richardus Raymaker: i use only imprudence there. there's nothing else
[02:12 PM] Armin WeatherHax: Stryker : not yet, though it would be easy to start a second instance with all necessary filled in
[02:12 PM] Boroondas Gupte: secondlife:// isn't just for locations ... the viewer uses it internally so the UI parts outsourced to web can still cause viewer actions
[02:12 PM] Penny Rayne: Talking of "There's nothing else" ... might be worth mentioning that Firestorm-2.5.2 is up in SL and stable and usable. No point hiding it.
[02:13 PM] Revolution Smythe: see you all
[02:13 PM] Armin WeatherHax: Firestorm-2.5.2 is btw pretty good
[02:13 PM] Penny Rayne: Cya Rev
[02:13 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Take care Rev
[02:13 PM] Richardus Raymaker: im sure it dont support streaming audio for me.. i need 64bit or support for audio. and only imprudence have it
[02:13 PM] Armin WeatherHax: tc Revolution
[02:14 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, we would probably have to keep secondlife:// support internally. But we could disable special treatment of it when clicked in chat.
[02:14 PM] Penny Rayne: Rich: I compiled my own but it's 32-bit. Everything works except for song titles display.
[02:15 PM] Richardus Raymaker: hehe, ok. i need to dig in that someday..
[02:15 PM] Stryker Jenkins: I have not tried the firestorm viewer yet. Seen the video though... looks nice indeed. Love the bottom bar
[02:15 PM] Boroondas Gupte: we might have to actively solicit feedback on hop:// ... ask devs of other viewers, as well as grid owners what it would need to be able of for them to support it
[02:16 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah
[02:16 PM] Armin WeatherHax: well, lets ask Arrehn -
[02:17 PM] Stryker Jenkins: how far is the implementation of Hop in Imprudence???
[02:17 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: hop:// support sounds like a great idea.
[02:17 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Imp has no hop support
[02:17 PM] Stryker Jenkins: OH?
[02:17 PM] Jacek Antonelli: (currently)
[02:17 PM] Stryker Jenkins: well that sounds like a must before you expect other viewers to adopt it
[02:17 PM] Richardus Raymaker: but its something like change inworlds:// for hop:// ?
[02:18 PM] Thoria Millgrove: I need to go; take care all, and rock on with the viewers ㋡
[02:18 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: Could transparently parsing vanity handlers back to hop:// in certain cases be an option?
[02:18 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Take care, Thoria :)
[02:18 PM] Penny Rayne: Cyu Thoria :-)
[02:18 PM] Boroondas Gupte: you'd exchange inworlds:// with hop://
[02:19 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Well, the URLs don't match up exactly like that
[02:19 PM] Boroondas Gupte: yeah, but the principle would be that you don't have to have a protocol per grid, but just a domain (or even just an IP)
[02:19 PM] Armin WeatherHax: well, the whole parsing part is extremely confusing, sometimes a slurl is converted several times internally
[02:19 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Right
[02:20 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: Sounds like it needs a white paper kind of proposal
[02:20 PM] Jacek Antonelli: There are also other "special" URLs, like and
[02:21 PM] Jacek Antonelli: I think we may have to convince grid operators to have some special HTTP headers or redirects, so we don't have to code in all those special URLs into the viewer. -_-
[02:21 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, the best would be to sit with some people interested in interop and clean client code of all sides and start over. I wouldn't be surprised if LL was happy to get rid of their mess
[02:22 PM] Penny Rayne: Hehge
[02:22 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Ideally, the viewer should actually ask the server for a document at those locations, and then act based on the contents of the document. Instead, the viewer just dissects the URL without even asking the server. :\
[02:22 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: If there was a good proposal on the table that covered many use cases, one could host a mini hypergrid conference with a few interested actors and present it, answer questions, see if it can get traction. At the very least they would know what it was when it started to appear in cosmopolitan viewers.
[02:23 PM] Armin WeatherHax: ( and maps.secondlife etc where already attempts)
[02:23 PM] Jacek Antonelli: (I think for hop, we might need to define more than just a URL scheme...)
[02:23 PM] Penny Rayne: Arrehn: gosh, organized development :P
[02:23 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, crazy thought, Penny!
[02:23 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yah diva as well as revolution have interesting approaches
[02:24 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Anyway, I think we can set aside this topic for now
[02:25 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Any opposition to leaving in InWorldz, but with the caveat that we will not add any more grid-specific URLs, and will start to phase it out when hop becomes mature?
[02:25 PM] Boroondas Gupte: well, actually this isn't even hypergrid-specific, is it? we'd want hop:// (or whatever scheme makes the race) to work on grids that aren't hypergridded, too, don't we?
[02:25 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Correct, Bor
[02:25 PM] Boroondas Gupte: No opposition from me, sounds very reasonable.
[02:26 PM] Penny Rayne: Bor: thats' the holy grail. And not too hard
[02:26 PM] Penny Rayne: Yep, very reasonable Jacek
[02:26 PM] Stryker Jenkins: Jacek +1
[02:26 PM] Jacek Antonelli: By the way, I propose that "HOP" should stand for "Happy Octopus Protocol". :D
[02:26 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yeah bor keep hop until we have it so that it meets our needs, and if then there is a better name i happyly go with that
[02:27 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: +1 if you can make a hat for that ;)
[02:27 PM] Jacek Antonelli grins
[02:27 PM] Stryker Jenkins: hmmm lol... what does the icon look like...
[02:27 PM] Stryker Jenkins: anyway... what's next on the topic list?
[02:27 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, let's move on to: Kokua upstream merging - plans, ideas, wishes?
[02:27 PM] Armin WeatherHax: maybe frog:// ?
[02:28 PM] Armin WeatherHax: ok top on my kokua wishlist is: have mesh in
[02:28 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Armin, you recently tried merging in Viewer 2.7 into Kokua?
[02:28 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, i *tried*
[02:29 PM] Stryker Jenkins: lol
[02:29 PM] Boroondas Gupte: FROG: F***ing tp me to Region on Grid
[02:29 PM] Jacek Antonelli: haha
[02:29 PM] Jacek Antonelli: +1 Boroondas
[02:29 PM] Stryker Jenkins: better to have tried and failed then never to have tried at all Armin
[02:29 PM] Stryker Jenkins: sounds promising never the less
[02:30 PM] Boroondas Gupte: what sub-version of 2.7 would you merge?
[02:30 PM] Armin WeatherHax: well, basic mode works, advanced however crashes, but i didnt run it with gdb yet, might be it is only the convex decomposition bug
[02:31 PM] Armin WeatherHax: (some silly null pointer easy to fix)
[02:32 PM] Armin WeatherHax: anyway - is mesh merge what we are going to do?
[02:32 PM] Boroondas Gupte: oh, wait, there's only 2.7.1 yet ...
[02:32 PM] Boroondas Gupte was still thinking of the 2.6.x series
[02:33 PM] Stryker Jenkins: hope so... but should we not "wait" until mesh is in the SL viewer and working before we add it to Kokua?
[02:33 PM] Jacek Antonelli: If someone wants to merge Kokua all the way up to the latest code... I won't stop them.
[02:33 PM] Stryker Jenkins: i.e. have them work out the kinks before we create our own?
[02:33 PM] Penny Rayne: Release it before LL :P
[02:34 PM] Jacek Antonelli: heh
[02:34 PM] Boroondas Gupte: latest ll/v-d doesn't build for me (broke standalone with the mesh-merge and I didn't get non-standalone working on 64-bit, yet, for either 64 or cross-compiled to 32)
[02:34 PM] Penny Rayne: Actually I'm more interested in the future of mesh in open grids than in SL. LL are bound to tie the whole thing up in restrictions.
[02:35 PM] Armin WeatherHax: Penny: :D i have a hand hacked region windlight support patch for Impy - LL source isn't out yet
[02:35 PM] Penny Rayne chuckles
[02:35 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Otherwise, my plan is still to try first merging up to the last commit in 2.6 before they merged in all the rendering changes from the mesh branch, then see what to do next
[02:36 PM] Jacek Antonelli: "What to do next" might be to merge even more stuff
[02:36 PM] Armin WeatherHax: Phoenix did a pit stop at 2.6.9 - and probably thats a reasonable thing to do
[02:36 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, that's what I think
[02:36 PM] Stryker Jenkins: yeap sounds imprudend...
[02:36 PM] Stryker Jenkins: lol
[02:36 PM] Penny Rayne: How horrible is the merging, Jacek? Or fairly plain sailing?
[02:37 PM] Richardus Raymaker: plain sailing on rocks .... :O
[02:37 PM] Penny Rayne: lol
[02:38 PM] Jacek Antonelli: I'm not sure. So far the only merge we have done was updating Kokua from 2.1 (or was it 2.2?) to 2.4. That was not too bad, but also Kokua hadn't diverged much from Viewer 2 yet, so an easy merge was normal.
[02:38 PM] Armin WeatherHax: anyway we will have to merge upstream quite more frequent than with viewer 1 - LL is firing patches at a far higher rate and the last 1/2 year of changes is about the difference between 1.22 and 1.23
[02:38 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Agreed, Armin
[02:40 PM] Penny Rayne: I wonder if Firestorm and Kokua are going to be heading in roughly compatible directions. Would be sad if code sharing suffers.
[02:40 PM] Penny Rayne: And a lot of work for all.
[02:41 PM] Armin WeatherHax: that brings us implicitely to the third topic - with our current crew we are just way to less for not only merging LL every 4 weeks and cooperation with other viewers is anyway saving anybody time of reinventing wheels
[02:42 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: I'm hoping there is going to a great deal of compatibility. I'm here to make sure that our visions aren't so different that they are going to create merge issues, and pointless duplicated, incompatible efforts :D
[02:42 PM] Penny Rayne: That's another Arrehn-type suggestion ... would be good if viewer teams talked to each other :P
[02:42 PM] Penny Rayne: (To Armin)
[02:42 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, I hope so too
[02:43 PM] Penny Rayne: That's great to hear Arrehn :-)
[02:44 PM] Penny Rayne: I think being able to get more sleep is to every dev's advantage :-)
[02:44 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yeah :)
[02:44 PM] Boroondas Gupte: What's the best way for devs of different viewers to communicate? (If you want to address several, not just someone particular?) Should we set up a mailing list for that?
[02:44 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm. I just had a crazy thought: a "common denominator" viewer codebase for TPVs to be based on. Basically it would be LL's code + any changes we made that haven't been merged upstream. Then Firestorm and Kokua would be forks of the common denominator, each specializing in some changes.
[02:45 PM] Boroondas Gupte: I've suggested something like that in the past, I think.
[02:45 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, that would be my idea, too
[02:45 PM] Penny Rayne: Jacek: that's so uber crazy I have to give it a +10000 :P
[02:45 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, I knew it was too good for me to have thought of it myself
[02:45 PM] Stryker Jenkins: lol
[02:46 PM] Boroondas Gupte: Well, wasn't my own original idea, either ... dunno who came up with it first.
[02:46 PM] Armin WeatherHax: and of course any project that wants to join in (and keeps drama at a reasonable low level)
[02:46 PM] Boroondas Gupte: yeah, that'd be the idea
[02:46 PM] Jacek Antonelli: I wonder about the relative effort involved in maintaining that, versus just passing patch files back and forth
[02:46 PM] Penny Rayne: So, not really a viewer, but TPV-customized codebase.
[02:46 PM] Stryker Jenkins: but someone has to initiate that idea... talk with other viewer devs about it...
[02:46 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Right
[02:47 PM] Stryker Jenkins: hmmm didn't I say that already to day?
[02:47 PM] Armin WeatherHax: penny ++ thats a thing that rather not build by itself but just a codebase
[02:47 PM] Richardus Raymaker: sounds a bit like the linux kernel idea
[02:47 PM] Boroondas Gupte: It would be a viewer, except without branding and without binary releases.
[02:47 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Stryker: You might have to create a "Talk to other viewer devs!" gesture soon, to save on keystrokes
[02:47 PM] Stryker Jenkins: lol
[02:47 PM] Penny Rayne: Hahaha
[02:47 PM] Boroondas Gupte: :-D
[02:48 PM] Boroondas Gupte: My questions still stands: How to best reach them all?
[02:48 PM] Armin WeatherHax: bor: i think it could have binary releases for the libs all need in case they are not up at LL
[02:48 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: Mailing list sounds like the easiest fruit.
[02:48 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, I wonder that too. I guess we need a Grand Unified Mailing List
[02:48 PM] Penny Rayne: lol
[02:48 PM] Penny Rayne: TPV Mailing List
[02:49 PM] Jacek Antonelli: But no drama, unlike that other TPV mailing list that was created a while back...
[02:49 PM] Penny Rayne: There was one already? What happened?
[02:49 PM] Jacek Antonelli: That should be rule #1 for participation: No. Drama.
[02:50 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, lets have a TPV ML - and lets someone not into viewer development be the "parent"
[02:50 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: I'm envisioning a kind of forum where we can at least share what we're working on, planning to work on.
[02:50 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: So we can be aware of what's in progress.
[02:50 PM] Jacek Antonelli: That shounds great, Arrehn
[02:50 PM] Jacek Antonelli: sounds, too
[02:50 PM] Jacek Antonelli is not drunk...
[02:51 PM] Penny Rayne: Is Henri still maintaining his patches site but not making a viewer?
[02:51 PM] Stryker Jenkins: anyway... go to get my beauty sleep... see you all laterssss
[02:51 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Nini Stryker
[02:51 PM] Penny Rayne: Cya Stryker
[02:52 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, so... what's the next action to take to start up this collaboration?
[02:53 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Or do we just talk about how great it would be, every week? :D
[02:53 PM] Penny Rayne: Hehe
[02:53 PM] Boroondas Gupte: hmm
[02:53 PM] Armin WeatherHax: lol, yeah
[02:53 PM] Armin WeatherHax: who can set up a ML?
[02:54 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: I'd say the action item would be to set up a mailing list. The first step would be to see if someone can volunteer to set it up. Preferrably with a name that is not in use yet.
[02:54 PM] Boroondas Gupte: what did you mean by "parent"?
[02:54 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: Ie, not " Grand unified viewer development list" ;)
[02:55 PM] Jacek Antonelli: heh
[02:55 PM] Armin WeatherHax: hm not sure what the word in english is bor: i meant something like schirmherr in german
[02:55 PM] Boroondas Gupte: so we first need a mailing list where to discuss the name of the mailing list?
[02:55 PM] Penny Rayne: That's why I was wondering whether Henri could be roped in. He's respected by all, and last time I looked, not making his own viewer, so a good "parent".
[02:55 PM] Penny Rayne: And has a site
[02:55 PM] Armin WeatherHax: online dictionary says :patron
[02:55 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: *nods*
[02:56 PM] Boroondas Gupte: I think Henri still makes Cool Viewer
[02:56 PM] Penny Rayne: Yeah, patron is the right word for this
[02:56 PM] Armin WeatherHax: I'd be ok with Henri since so many viewers are incorporating his patches
[02:56 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Or "moderator" (in the sense of a discussion moderator, not someone who just approves emails to be posted)
[02:56 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: Henri sounds like a good person to ask.
[02:57 PM] Armin WeatherHax: another one - if he likes to- would be nicolaz
[02:57 PM] Boroondas Gupte: is Nicholaz still around?
[02:57 PM] Penny Rayne: Nicolaz left I thought?
[02:57 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: I'm not as familiar with his recent work, just from the earli viewer.
[02:57 PM] Armin WeatherHax: (unless both are alts and i don't know )
[02:58 PM] Boroondas Gupte: is actually the only non-TPV-directory entry on that page that's cept current, it seems
[02:58 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Nicholaz "got out of the business" a long time ago
[02:59 PM] Jacek Antonelli: I have a bit of concern about Henri. He often has strong feelings about things, and that can lead to drama and arguments. :-\
[02:59 PM] Armin WeatherHax: Yeah actually Cool would deserve a place in the directory for honoris causa (at least)
[03:00 PM] Boroondas Gupte: I don't think Henri wants his viewer in there at all. AFAIK, he opposes the directory.
[03:01 PM] Penny Rayne: There's a difference between drama and strong well-articulated argument. The latter is nothing to worry about, quite the opposite.
[03:01 PM] Jacek Antonelli: He has contributed a lot of patches, so I mean no disrespect to him. I'm just not sure he's a good choice for the role of "parenting" a bunch of viewer devs. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this?
[03:02 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: I've heard that same concern.
[03:03 PM] Boroondas Gupte: As for ML patron: What about me? As you know I've thought about resigning as an 'offical' Kokua dev., as I don't seem to have time to contribute much. (Dunno how much time ML cat herding would take, though.)
[03:03 PM] Armin WeatherHax: Jacek i know what you mean, hes sometimes pretty - polarized - and for sure not the prototype of a viewer 2 fan
[03:04 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: I don't know how'd he feel about hosting a list primarily for V2 collaboration. He might choke on his coffee ;)
[03:04 PM] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[03:04 PM] Jacek Antonelli: I would vote for Boroondas :)
[03:04 PM] Penny Rayne: Yeah, but nobody sensible is the prototype of a viewer 2 fan. :P Firestorm for example is as comfortable as a V1 viewer.
[03:05 PM] Penny Rayne: I would vote for Bor too :-)
[03:05 PM] Boroondas Gupte: I, too, do have strong opinions about some things (and do tell others about them), but I think I'm able to be somewhat diplomatic, where needed.
[03:06 PM] Armin WeatherHax: and how about the AWG taking that job for the first time until anything is worked out and found its way
[03:06 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Arrehn would also been a good candidate, although I'm not sure if he's interested in the job
[03:06 PM] Richardus Raymaker: ok, have fun. need to logout. some problems catching me in osgrid
[03:06 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Take care, RiRa :)
[03:06 PM] Penny Rayne: Cyu Rich :-)
[03:07 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: I'm wondering if there's a google/sourceforge/whatever place that can be used for this, so that it's not so much of a job.
[03:07 PM] Armin WeatherHax: or any of the loved ex-lindens - like Tofu - or Infinity - or ...
[03:07 PM] Penny Rayne: Armin: AWGroupies seems to be massively SL-centric, sad to say. Wasn't the plan, but that's how it evolved.
[03:08 PM] Boroondas Gupte: is that the case? in the group notices I see events about topics announced that aren't even related to VWs.
[03:08 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Google Groups seems to be the default place to go when you want a mailing list but don't want to host it on your own domain
[03:08 PM] Penny Rayne: LOL, Infinity and "no drama" in the same paragraph :P
[03:09 PM] Boroondas Gupte: I do have a server, but not sure it could take the load. (I'm sharing it with some friends, so we can split the rent.)
[03:10 PM] Penny Rayne: By the way, our IETF effort came to a close. Infinity was the only one who wanted no interop between VWs in VWRAP. The IESG noted that the LL-inspired charter bore no relation to what everyone else wanted (ie. interop), and shut down the official WG.
[03:10 PM] Armin WeatherHax: ok, lets have the ML ourselves and trust in our ability to be mature enough XD
[03:11 PM] Penny Rayne: So VWRAP is just an IETF mailing list now, until someone wants to start up a proper pro-interop charter.
[03:11 PM] Jacek Antonelli: I would be fine hosting the list on our server, I just thought we probably want an "apolitical" domain name, rather than one related to a specific viewer
[03:11 PM] Armin WeatherHax: ah :/ ok the final name of hop:// will not be vwrap://
[03:11 PM] Penny Rayne: ?
[03:11 PM] Penny Rayne: :P
[03:11 PM] Jacek Antonelli: heh
[03:12 PM] Boroondas Gupte: Highjacking the VWRAP list to use it for TPV coordination wouldn't be a good idea, would it?
[03:12 PM] Jacek Antonelli: is a good name to inspire drama-free discussion
[03:12 PM] Armin WeatherHax: Boroondas++
[03:12 PM] Penny Rayne: Bor: sadly, not allowed
[03:13 PM] Boroondas Gupte: 'sadly'? maybe that's for the better
[03:13 PM] Penny Rayne: If teams were to ever discuss interop though, that would be a valid use of that ML, regardless of direction.
[03:14 PM] Boroondas Gupte: well, hop:// could be discussed there, i guess
[03:14 PM] Penny Rayne: Oh sure, perfect
[03:15 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: Chalice Yao might be a person. She isn't active anymore, but knows everyone. And moderates SLuniverse in a drama free, neutral way.
[03:15 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: I can't believe i just said SLU and drama-free in the same sentence.
[03:15 PM] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[03:15 PM] Boroondas Gupte: :-P
[03:15 PM] Penny Rayne: hehe
[03:15 PM] Armin WeatherHax just mentions Penny isn't involved into any viewer development and into interop for a long time
[03:16 PM] Penny Rayne: No comment :P
[03:16 PM] Armin WeatherHax: no comment like "rather not" or like "I would do it if anyoune is ok" ?
[03:18 PM] Penny Rayne: Too opinionated. You need someone who doesn't care. :-)
[03:18 PM] Armin WeatherHax: lol, ok
[03:19 PM] Boroondas Gupte: People who don't care aren't involved in Viewer development, I fear.
[03:19 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: We might not be able to decide this minute. ;)
[03:19 PM] Boroondas Gupte: yeah
[03:19 PM] Arrehn Oberlander: Are there any other agenda items in danger of being overlooked?
[03:19 PM] Penny Rayne: How about Maria Korolov?
[03:19 PM] Boroondas Gupte: who's that?
[03:20 PM] Penny Rayne: HypergridBusiness
[03:20 PM] Armin WeatherHax: Arrehn++ probably the "just do it and see what happens" approach is best
[03:20 PM] Boroondas Gupte: do what?
[03:20 PM] Armin WeatherHax: start a ML
[03:21 PM] Boroondas Gupte: without a parton, then?
[03:21 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Hm, I don't know anything about Maria's skill at moderating discussion. She may be good, or may be bad, I really don't know.
[03:21 PM] Boroondas Gupte: (if none's needed, all the better)
[03:22 PM] Jacek Antonelli: We could try and see if it works okay without any patron. Maybe we can be civil and drama-free on our own...
[03:23 PM] Boroondas Gupte: re other Agenda topics: are we finished with "helping other viewers with OpenSim support"? that kinda transitioned into the hop/common TPV upstream topic
[03:24 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, think thats the best - start a "bootstrap" one - and if needed move it to "neutral terrain"
[03:24 PM] Boroondas Gupte: well, we could start it at neutral terrain right away (google code, e.g., or sourceforge or what all there is)
[03:24 PM] Penny Rayne: Perhaps add wording about "technical discussions" to the charter. If you can point directly at the charter and say "off topic", it difuses arguments that aren't technically based rapidly.
[03:25 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, think we coverered "helping other viewers with OpenSim support" enough for today and its a good staring point for the new ML
[03:25 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Oops, we lost Arrehn
[03:25 PM] Penny Rayne: Aye. He was either typing War and Peace, or in the process of d/c :P
[03:26 PM] Jacek Antonelli: hehe
[03:26 PM] Armin WeatherHax: he also disappeared from my jabber - think its a network issue
[03:27 PM] Penny Rayne: So he's a Phoenix team dev?
[03:27 PM] Boroondas Gupte: yeah
[03:27 PM] Penny Rayne: That's a great start to coop
[03:27 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, he started Firestorm
[03:27 PM] Armin WeatherHax: and coordinates it afaik
[03:28 PM] Boroondas Gupte: he comes to almost every ImpDev meeting
[03:28 PM] Boroondas Gupte: and can often be found at #kokua and #imprudence.
[03:30 PM] Penny Rayne: McCabe's comment to me last week was very funny. I can well believe that he was somewhat oiled, as he suggested. "Thunder titans! For change is upon our hills!" :DDDD
[03:30 PM] Armin WeatherHax: I admit I never was at any Phoenix meeting and also never in their irc channel
[03:30 PM] Boroondas Gupte: neither was I
[03:31 PM] Penny Rayne: I went once to an Emerald meeting. Christ that was scary, it was like attending a mafia meetup.
[03:31 PM] Armin WeatherHax: ok, maybe thats the staring point to do so
[03:31 PM] Boroondas Gupte: well, I might have been in their IRC channel once or twice, but not for long
[03:32 PM] Jacek Antonelli: Arrehn has been the main push for collaboration between viewers. I mean, a lot of us say it's a good idea, but he's been actually trying to do something about it
[03:32 PM] Penny Rayne: super
[03:32 PM] Boroondas Gupte: yeah
[03:32 PM] Penny Rayne: Clearly he likes his sleep :-)
[03:33 PM] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, ok, lets learn and also go to sleep( at least at europe) ?
[03:33 PM] Jacek Antonelli: hehe, yeah. Okay, take care everyone. :)